possible unbiased rendering engine integration in GH?

Well, this is a rather strange question, maybe doesnt make sense, but I wonder if there is any possibilities in the future for GH and Mcneel to approach TOPnotch rendering platform (for example, like Maxwell render), to have a good integration within RHino+GH? (no Penguin or other biased rendering)

Vray doesn't really take rhino seriously, as Vray for rhino version is always falling behind Vray for 3dsmax. ( have to admit it bcz all rendering platform focus more on big 3D software like Max or Maya ).

Maxwell is the only thing that offers rhino its maximum capabilities and function, because the software works like an open plug in, meaning that it is a separate system that does not interfere with Rhino's, (I am not sure if I describe it correctly, as I am not familiar with computer language)

however, Maxwell has some limitation mainly because they are not within rhino system itself, just an extension plug-in. It cannot override rhino's command, one case is when u hit render, rhino has to export the model into plug-in native object before rendering process begin.(not to mention maxwell camera and rhino camera does not match), creating a complex model ( big exterior rendering ) will suffocate and limit rhino capabilities of computing complex geometry.

Considering rhino 6 and GH 2.0 will probably come out next year, any possibilities for rhino to come up with better way to handle visualization? (rendering)???, just imagine an un-biased rendering engine with Grasshopper, how powerful that would be.

pardon if I am a little bit like a brat, asking a lot of strange question, but my concern is all about making rhino+GH to become the most versatile 3D modeller in the world ( it does now, but needs to add more and more and more stuff :D )

thanks,

~for those who do Architectural Design+planning-3dmodelling-and rendering work as their daily job, please feel free to join this discussion :))) ~

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Shridhar Mamidalaa on January 23, 2015 at 10:22pm

I think Keyshot is faster and open to collaborate, Zbrush has announced 4r7 version with a bridge to keyshot coming this spring. The reason zbrush is good with keyshot is ... that its fast and works fine with huge file sizes. Rhino has a plugin Keyshot but it just exports files

Permalink Reply by Runnie on January 23, 2015 at 11:34pm

yes, I heard about that, but keyshot is not widely used for big exterior rendering, and it is not popular in rhino as well. I was hoping for full integration between 3dsoftware and the rendering platform. so there is no need to export the model.would be even better if it can be plugged into GH :)

zbrush is fast because it is pixol, totally different for rhino, It can handle 100mil polygon, because it is half way between 2D and 3D,because rendering needs voxelization, Zbrush itself is very very compatible with that, that is why its rendering is very fast indeed. I have posted some discussion about making rhino mesh works like pixol but so far nobody is interested.

Zbrush 4R7 introduce new mesh subdiv, a little bit like Max subdiv. pixologic is trying to broaden the range of their geometry capabilities, so Rhino should also "pinch" some of the key features from Zbrush hahahaha T^T

may I know your workflow between modelling and rendering,buddy?

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on January 24, 2015 at 12:23am

Well ... as everybody knows Rhino IS NOT an AEC app (nor it would ever be). But let's pretend that you can use Rhino for AEC purposes:

If a "top" rendering engine is required (I hardy can see the reason) ... the only way to do something meaningful/realistic is to follow Bentley System's way: they had 3 rendering engines (all highly problematic and archaic), a bunch of highly paid "gurus" to "develop" the dead fish and an export to Maxwell capability as well (Maxwell is very slow and has no chance VS Nexus, see below). PS: "Gurus" had no idea about Quest3D and the likes.

At the time, I was near to some permanent ban (he he) from all Bentley Forums due to my acid writings about how stupid these methods were. In fact I openly proposed to Bentley (to Ray Bentley to be exact) to fire all "gurus" involved ... and follow the outsource path.

Finally Ray (he's very smart) did the right thing: after an agreement with Luxology ... now Microstation (the core product) uses the Nexus engine (as found in Modo). This means that the Nexus is fully integrated across the whole vertical suite of BIM AEC Bentley apps the likes of AECOSim (that includes Generative Components as well).

And as everyone knows THIS is the real McCoy (US movie industry is behind that thing).

Additionally Modo has the best GUI known to mankind (US movie ... blah blah) and astonishingly innovative thinking (US movie ... blah blah).

Permalink Reply by Shridhar Mamidalaa on January 24, 2015 at 1:33am

Since Rhino is prolified into multiple Industries necessities and possibilities should be considered.

Permalink Reply by Shridhar Mamidalaa on January 24, 2015 at 1:38am

@ Runnie check this Google search showing decent exterior renders. yeah maybe Keyshot is not popular as ARchitecture 3drender. but its good and fast. Its can render large file sizes which some times are not possible to pan or zoom in few standalone 3d applications.

Permalink Reply by Runnie on January 24, 2015 at 2:07am

@peter fotiadis

hi peter, thanks for the reply, in contrast with your knowledge, I dont know much about other 3D apps (such as the one u mentioned MODO) I mainly use 3D software to visualize my design and Rhino+GH is one of the very few that I feel comfortable to work with (as well as other fantastic software, name it Zbrush and 3dsmax). maybe I didn't dig enough as much as u did, and to be honest I have no idea about those nexus engine etc that u mentioned. so pardon for my lack of knowledge, but It doesnt stop me to keep asking stuff on this forum because people here seem to be very open and they share alot of stuff :)))

about the modelling+rendering method,sometimes I dont really care how the software works (but of course I have a descent knowledge to know what is NURBS what is mesh,u know, basic stuff) all I care about is how to use the tool I need, with few clicks, tweaks and adjustment to get the result that I want (with rhino+GH and Zbrush, I have no trouble to model any types of geometry I have encountered so far{architectural objects, landscape details, etc}) however I still have a long way to learn about algoritm.

I am happy enough with Rhino because it handles most of the problem I need to solve. (maybe it is not good enough for you because I think you have a very specific demands for your work)
it is just a pity that Rhino+GH doesnt really have cool stuff to do intuitive visualization (as much as 3ds max does). and rendering is one of the biggest issue here (only very few img on the net you find descent enough done in rhino rendering compared to other 3d software rendering)

normally the developer team will add new stuff if there is a big demand from the users.as for rhino+GH, I sincerely hope they will collaborate more with other platform, opening new door, and creating new bridges to meet the need of various users.

@ peter fotiadis may I know what is it that you do? (share a little bit about your work perhaps)?

your post is always controversial and it is fun to read. hahahaha

@ Shridhar Mamidalaa

3D architecture rendering is a big industry in my country, and the competition is very tough, most of architectural and design consultant now have to produce high quality rendering as part of our design product. (even at early stage the client wants to see the "FINAL" look). The deadlines are limited in just few days and with so many competitors outthere, producing a HIGH QUALITY rendering is the only ticket to win client's heart. UNBIASED rendering becomes more and more popular since computer now is fast enough to do that. Keyshot is fantastic, but I dont think I could ever introduce that to the team since it is not widely used. however, I appreciate your opinion :), are you using Keyshot for your daily works? how is it compared to Vray and Maxwell? (I am not talking about speed, obviously Maxwell is the slowest one here)

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on January 24, 2015 at 4:13am

Well Runnie,

I'm an Engineer (Architect to be exact).

1. What I do: https://www.behance.net/peterfotiadis

2. Why I do what I do? Because Caroline of Monaco declined my marrying proposal (Yikes!).

3. What software I use: Microsation, AECOSIm (BIM), Catia/SiemensNX, Generative Components (slow, faulty, almost dead), Quest3d (boy! this is from planet Zorg) and GH (good fun but NOT for "strict" AEC matters). I use numerous other stuff for fun as well.

4. Do I use Modo for other than fun? No ... because I hate subdivision modeling (but this doesn't stop me from admiring a stunning product made by the best out there).

5. Am I a Bentley man? Yes (and no).

6. Does Rhino need a "top" rendering thing and/or Nexus? No.

7. Does Rhino need Quest3D? Yes.

8. Can Rhino do AEC things? No (but can act in a third violin role).

9. Should Rhino target AEC? Yes (requires a lot of money, mind).

10. Should GH target AEC? Yes (see n9).

PS: still renderings are previous century stuff: there's the next century going on now (from what I'm told, he he). Do people know that? No (as usual).

best, Peter

Permalink Reply by Runnie on January 24, 2015 at 5:12am

1. just looked at your website, stunning portfolios, you did alot of "heavy" stuff there, which is amazing. I am aware that rhino is too "light" for you and therefor you use specific softwares to cater your need.. bravo my friend!

2.Hahaha career first, woman later.

3.maybe it is because my country has yet to use the softwares you mentioned, I am pretty sure they are used by engineer, since my practice is only architectural work, we always collaborate with the engineer to get the job done (by collaborate, I mean passing on the job to the engineer, and then we just let them handle all the stuff, the sad news is architect and designers doesnt get paid much to deal with those)

in contrast with your software, me and my team use Rhino,GH,3dsmax, and Zbrush-- these are standard package you got after u graduate from any arch.college. the level of detail I produce in my modelling is not as "heavy" as yours because the client I face every week only worries about the appearance of the building, as well as convenience in terms of planning, efficiency, and cost control over the design.

I am surprised you don't use REVIT or ArchiCAD? they are the standard for BIM documentation.

4.well, subdiv modeling is one of my fave. (That is why Tspline is my fave tool in rhino, to sketch out the model that I want, however it depends on the type of geometry you are after, for "solid modelling" I prefer Subdiv modelling rather than standard NURBS )

5. no comment for that hahaha

6.I disagree, I think Rhino needs a TOP rendering software as part of rhino system itself. to make it at least on par with 3dsmax. rhino isn't built for restrictive use like CATIA, so its purpose is for "MODELLING and VISUALIZATION". at the moment we only see the "MODELLING" part.

7.+1 for this

8.I have to agree with that. there is no way we can incorporate BIM in Rhino. also it is not widely accepted to somehow have BIM file in Rhino format. but...

9. in the future it might be, because if you compared rhino 4 to rhino 5 there has been a major breakthrough, who knows what will happen in rhino 6 or 7.

10.I saw a post the other day,David said he intended GH to be algorimtic modelling instead of parametric, and GH is like a swiss army knife, it has thousands of tools to do general job, but it requires 3rd party member (we call it add-on) to extend its uses. Id prefer GH to have much broader function to encourage people to expand its wings

PS= are u talking about augmented reality? :)

Peace!

Permalink Reply by peter fotiadis on January 24, 2015 at 5:35am

Well ... when I become emperor of the world (I do hope up to this Friday) I'll ban all the still rendering things (what a waist of resources, stupid render farms et all ... all 1M miles out of the real target) ... and redirect people towards the way that Quest3D (and others) does things. Export a 100K frame animation in 12.45 seconds anyone? he he.

On the other hand if Adobe could(?) resurrect(?) the dormant 3DPDF thing (what a stunning idea was that 10 years ago - left to die because that man ... censored due to politically correct reasons, he he). On the other hand, even mighty Israel (the brain behind CATIA) failed to deliver the Plan B (3d XML).

PS: An AEC thing is 1% idea(s) and 99% ugly/boring bureaucratic work. Never forget that if you judge AEC BIM software. But Rhino could kill the 3 giants in some sectors (i.e. AutoDesk, Bentley and Nemetschek ) provided that ... blah blah blah.

PS: All things considered (and including Generative Components) there's only one BIM AEC thing out there: AECOSim (but I'm a Bentley man, he he).

Permalink Reply by Shridhar Mamidalaa on January 24, 2015 at 2:38am

Runnie, I am just starting my career as an Artist and Architect. As u said Vray is dominating Industry for high quality renders...is True. Conceptual stages of product deisgns we use keyshot since its fast . When it comes to client... renders are outsourced ..where they use Max and Maya.Many people are unaware of Rhino in my country, people are catching up interest in paraemtrics but on a slow phase.

Permalink Reply by Runnie on January 24, 2015 at 5:22am

the same goes to the ppl in my country, but I can see parametric being the "STANDARD" for architectural business in the next 5 -10 years

actually, designers and 3D rendering should be done by the same person (or team), not all 3D viz company can understand architectural detail, I believe a big company like Hadid,OMA,or BIG they have their own architectural viz team.

since i dont do product design, I have never used Keyshot, but I ve seen some cool image on the net, maybe worth a try :)

Permalink Reply by Mateusz Zwierzycki on January 24, 2015 at 6:26am

"I believe a big company like Hadid,OMA,or BIG they have their own architectural viz team."

Nope, they outsource most of the viz jobs... That's probably one of the main reasons we won't see any complex enough rendering engine for Rhino. Big rendering firms have their own workflow developed during the last 30 years (I'm thinking about fx business too). The tools developed for visualizations are pointed towards animation and big fx players (ILM, pixar...). Also don't forget that Rhino's background is industrial design, not architecture.

The point is - visualizations are for movie industry, being able to use those tools for architecture is just a side effect.