Some questions about the comunity...

Yesterday I was talking to a alumn of mine about the grasshopper comunity openness. He told me that first years in other digital comunities (cg comunities) was the same: all people sharing, everyone that wants to learn, he could. But some years ago the CG business got bigger and people paid a lot for good renderings. That point was the one that broke the sharing thing: knoledge was equal to money, then knoledge was not shared anymore in that way.

I was thinking a lot about that, because like teacher I like the way people talk here and share everything he could (some guys not, but allways there is a "black sheep", like we say in spanish) and this thing makes comunity a really awesome place to learn and share. Of course, now, we could see, that comunity have some not told rules: if a guy doesn't investigate, doesn't put his time trying to solve his problem and only wants the easy solution, then, normally there is no answer to him. And this is good, comunity control naturally the bad use of resources and effort of everyone here.

Are we going to get static, boring, money makers, anytime, using this comunity for share cool images and videos but always thinking that our knoledge is our money, and not sharing to not create "rivalry", making a closed comunity?

My english is really crappy, but I'm trying to open the conversation about where we want to drive the comunity and parametric modelling with grasshopper knoledge sharing thing. Will my childrens be abble to learn GH (if they wants) with a alive comunity that put knoledge over money?

I'm enjoying this and I don't want that GH comunity gets into other Evermotion star system forum. We are lucky people and that could continues in future...I think.

I hope not to offense anyone here, only putting thinking outside.

Best Regards.

Ángel Linares García.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dedackelzucht on May 13, 2011 at 4:08am

enjoy the grasshopper comunity openness as long it exists! Black Sheeps are everywhere. But you are right, it is sad but nomaly they cast out everyone who is working here in the comunity with passion.

Best Regards

DeDackel

Permalink Reply by Garcia del Castillo on May 13, 2011 at 4:08am

This is definitely a really interesting topic.

From my point of view, parametric design is nothing really new, but it is how widespread it is getting that it's making it more and more interesting to the general public: the so-called 'fax effect'.

Anyway, probably the success of this particular community here, the gh3d one, relies on two major keypoints:

- The fact that GH is freeware, and therefore, not only more people have access to it but also they use it for work plus experimentation and research.

- The direct contact this community holds with the people who run and control GH (how many posts does David reply per day...?!?!)

These are probably the facts that have driven GC to not be so successful at all and have very little to no community supporting it, pretty much in the situation you are describing Ángel: GC being exclusively used for comercial purposes and people holding tight to their knowledge of it...

Best!

Jose Luis García del Castillo

Permalink Reply by Ángel Linares on May 13, 2011 at 4:21am

A friend of mine, reading this post gives me this video :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJeKS0gNz48

I think that grasshopper freeware state could be decisive but not the only important thing here, like you said JLX.

Thanks both, for your answer :)

Permalink Reply by txingyu on May 13, 2011 at 5:08am

I think that you might be right but not sure of the definition of term 'knowledge'. As far as I know, the knowledge which can be converted into money is not images or free scriptings at all because it doesn't work if no understanding. However to understand something will spend time. For who have no passion on it, they obviously give up to learn. As you know, the algorithemic approach is systematic and cann't be learned at a glance. I do mean it. Just my opinion.

Xing

Permalink Reply by Ángel Linares on May 13, 2011 at 6:02am

Of course, to convert knowledge into money you need to understand first and make the stuff you learn your own stuff. That's my point of view too. I'm only speaking about some people that believe that a script or GH file could be translate into money easily. Then they could not share knoledge because afraid about lose their position in the bussiness. That wrong way of thinking acelerate everything and everything is like a big falling domino game: someone doesn't share because is afraid, then other guy doesn't share because the other guy doesn't....

If you visited evermotion or other CG comunities at 90's people were sharing everything, Vray was in beta, Brazil was in dominant place like GI render engine (as far as I remember), lightscape was used too, and people share materials, scenes configurations, etc., because something new was borning and everybody wanted to learn.

That is our state here and now at GH comunity, but I think that we could be in the last days of this great sharing and could be great speak about the oportunity of change things and make the difference.

Best Regards

Permalink Reply by Fred Becquelin on May 13, 2011 at 8:37am

Hi!

A gh jockey must be able to adapt a definition at any time, so understanding is the only thing. Just setting inputs won't make lots of money!

In the beggining I wasn't willing to share because, like you say, I was afraid, but I realized that you CANNOT share on a forum what really matters, the ability to find the right backbone for a specific design.

For example, I worked on stadium risers. Of course I downloaded OSOME's StadioMatic, but it didn't exactly fit

in our design process so I had to make my own from scratch anyway.

I'm about to post a developable surface definition that took me a lot of time, but hey, I don't hold a patent on these! However I can only share my own property, not what I did for my employers. They're the real moneymakers but they don't draw anything. Most things I don't share because I simply don't have the rights.

And you don't need gh to find black sheep, they'll go for anything!

I think all we need more to make money is a Job Section here.

Fred.

Permalink Reply by Ángel Linares on May 13, 2011 at 8:56am

Of course employers definitions are not yours, thats right, but the logic you follow to solve a problem is not your employers ownership, the solution is, but not the process.

All the better stuff we share here are most time logics to work with not complete definitions. Some months ago a friend of mine teach me how to order list using complex numbers and that was amazing, that new point of view changes the way I think my definitions.

If I go back to CG example: you cannot share the material you make to your client's render (f.e. red wood floor), but you can share the way you make wood floors (reflection setting, fresnel levels, glossines...etc. and why you use that). Without the texture you use, or the model you have with same lights, etc., that material doesn't work.

Programing (or visual programing) we make is alive and always you can find some new ideas to code better.

Best.

P.S.: I agree...we need a Job Section here...:)

Permalink Reply by Vicente Soler on May 13, 2011 at 10:19am

Of course employers definitions are not yours, thats right, but the logic you follow to solve a problem is not your employers ownership, the solution is, but not the process.

Warning, rant on intelectual property that goes nowhere:

In my opinion it's very dificult to determine when someones intelectual work becomes actual property that you should be able to protect.

There's a big difference between intelectual property and other types of scarce property (like a computer, a chair, etc.). Usually, its a good idea that scarce resouces are bought and sold in the market instead of sharing them because the price mechanism (supply and demand) determines its best possible use in that given moment. Intelectual property on the other hand is not scarce once it has been created, so if a 5 year old with an internet connection downloads a Grasshopper definition i created, it's not preventing an architect to use it for a more suitable purpose. Just like, in a practical sense, the more air I breath doesen't mean the less less air other people have left to breath, because there is so much air it could be asumed (today, at least) that the abuncance is infinite. So trading air in the maket place is nonsensical.

The only reason for copyright and patent laws to artificially make scarce a particular piece of intelectual property is so that people have an economic incentive to innovate and create new intelectual property. The advances in inovation should offset the artificial scarcity.

If that last point is true, it should be a good thing that people are not giving things up for free but rather selling them because it promotes inovation, but I'm personally not sure if this is true. Probably McNeel will agree to the last point on some extent and say that maybe patent laws go too far but copyright laws that protect Rhino and Grasshopper (even though right now it's free, it still 'owned' by McNeel) should be in place.

So I end up as I started, it's very dificult to determine when its a good idea (not just for an individual but in general) to sell or share this stuff.

If someone is interested in an extreme anti intelectual property rant from someone that otherwise defends private property, see this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRqsdSARrgk

Permalink Reply by RWNB on May 13, 2011 at 9:49am

if we want to continue to make these communications forum instructive and informative,

then we must also bring the willingness to share. only the system remains alive because

it is communicated.

By the way: http://www.grasshopper3d.com/forum/topics/i-need-help-3

thanks. (:

Permalink Reply by Shawn Fernandez on May 13, 2011 at 11:13am

There is a big difference between a community that is willing to help others learn HOW and those who want it done for them. Teaching how to get where you want to go will always be freely available. Getting other people to do it for you is not free and those who try to get that are the people who typically get shunned here. I like the job posting idea for the site, btw.

Permalink Reply by RWNB on May 13, 2011 at 11:43am

dear shawn,

you are certainly right. the participants of such a communication forum to be evaluated differently with their interests, intentions and capabilities. but who says that the positions are always fixed and are not movable. surely there is something like "black sheep", but i will also assume the users gratitude, which be helped. who will be helped, want to show his gratitude by supporting others, provided he can do this.

thus remains the knowledge; if you can help, then you will contribute that the communication remain alive.

Permalink Reply by Yoann Mescam (Systemiq) on May 13, 2011 at 1:35pm

I think there should some rules of conduct on these forums, or Read First sticky post, which clearly emphatize this, and also give some pointers to the best way of getting helped (post sources, screenshots, explain clearly what the problem is, search the forums first, etc etc).

Also, one can consider that helping and teaching is a very good way to learn new things.

Most of the helpers in these forums probably realized they were learning a lot by thinking about someone else's problem. Thus I feel confident about people continuing to provide hints, partial solutions or full functional definitions.